tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post3971836979243597266..comments2024-02-18T12:18:45.788-05:00Comments on Sun and Shield: Cautions on interpreting what the Bible says about end timesMartin LaBarhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14629053725732957599noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post-37995607220985946262010-01-24T04:21:41.668-05:002010-01-24T04:21:41.668-05:00Thanks, James-Michael Smith.
I looked at the mate...Thanks, James-Michael Smith.<br /><br />I looked at the material on your blog, which, no doubt, is good material, but I'm afraid that I don't have available time to do it justice at the moment.<br /><br />Thanks again.Martin LaBarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14629053725732957599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post-87122849457760211522010-01-23T15:12:10.289-05:002010-01-23T15:12:10.289-05:00Well said, Martin. I'm encouraged to read you...Well said, Martin. I'm encouraged to read your blog (and surprised at how much we have in common!). <br /><br />May I invite you and your readers to check out some of my posts on End-Times issues? <br /><br />http://www.jmsmith.org/search/label/eschatology<br /><br />Blessings,<br />James-Michael Smith<br />Methodist Examiner<br />examiner.comJMShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04764107457421094503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post-8020146213183196862009-09-28T05:23:08.966-04:002009-09-28T05:23:08.966-04:00Thanks a lot, BruceA.
I'm having enough doubt...Thanks a lot, BruceA.<br /><br />I'm having enough doubts about the rapture, as so often presented, that I'm going to edit the original post a bit.<br /><br />I'm so sorry, but I can't see reading anything else right now! Maybe later.Martin LaBarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14629053725732957599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post-39481562926042274042009-09-28T01:40:15.774-04:002009-09-28T01:40:15.774-04:00I agree with Benji that the rapture is not scriptu...I agree with Benji that the rapture is not scriptural.<br /><br />1 Thessalonians 4:17 is talking about the second coming, not a secret rapture. The key is in the phrase "meet him in the air," in which the word translated "meet" is an unusual Greek term. Bible scholar Barbara Rossing explains it this way:<br /><br />"Paul's description of 'meeting' the Lord in the air employs a very specific Greek word for greeting a visiting dignitary in ancient times: <i>apantesis</i>, a practice by which people went outside the city to greet the dignitary and then accompanied him into their city. The same word is used in Matthew 25:6 to describe the bridesmaids who go out to 'meet' the bridegroom and then accompany him into the feast, and also in Acts 28:15 to describe the Romans who go out to 'meet' Paul as he arrives in their city."<br /><br />So this passage is not talking about believers being taken away from Earth in a secret rapture, but about believers escorting Jesus <i>to</i> Earth during the second coming.<br /><br />At the risk of seeming self-serving, I'll give you a link to a <a href="http://www.brucealderman.info/blog/2007/05/why-i-will-not-be-raptured.html" rel="nofollow">two</a> <a href="http://www.brucealderman.info/blog/2007/09/why-i-will-not-be-raptured-part-ii.html" rel="nofollow">part</a> blog I wrote about this a couple years ago.BruceAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16013588487417582411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post-17185453459686520762009-09-22T12:07:28.950-04:002009-09-22T12:07:28.950-04:00I looked at the references you suggested, benjiove...I looked at the references you suggested, benjiovercash. Interesting, for sure.<br /><br />Thanks.Martin LaBarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14629053725732957599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post-28658583500321659192009-09-22T07:00:19.721-04:002009-09-22T07:00:19.721-04:00Go to it, guys!
That's part of what blogging ...Go to it, guys!<br /><br />That's part of what blogging is about.<br /><br />Jeff, thanks for your comment. There is at least one verse that seems to teach the concept of a rapture, namely 1 Thessalonians 4:17. But the <b>term</b> is not in the Bible.Martin LaBarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14629053725732957599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post-77791351357854248792009-09-22T02:18:04.091-04:002009-09-22T02:18:04.091-04:00Hi, George. As I said earlier, I really don't ...Hi, George. As I said earlier, I really don't want to hijack Dr. LaBar's blog, but if you'd like to continue this discussion feel free to email me at benji[dot]overcash[at]gmail[dot]com. Or you can comment on my post about rapture theology at theophilux.com and we can continue that way.<br /><br />God's Peace,<br />BenjiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post-57690100391063545392009-09-21T22:30:46.382-04:002009-09-21T22:30:46.382-04:00Thanks for your comments, Benji. I can't agree...Thanks for your comments, Benji. I can't agree that this world is destined to be redeemed- actually, people will, but I'm convinced the world will not. In Revelation 21:1, the new city came down from God out of heaven, because the old heaven and earth had disappeared, and the sea was gone. In 2 Peter 3:10, the heavens will pass away, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire (NLT wording). To me, that does not suggest redemption, but recreation. Also, if the ones left in Matthew 24 are the righteous and not the wicked, then who are the ones being punished on the earth by the seals, trumpets, and bowls in Revelation? <br /><br />It's likely that we are coming at this from different directions, and I very much enjoy reading your thoughts. We are in complete agreement, however, about what is most important- that we're going to be with Jesus in eternity.<br /><br />Thanks, Dr. L., for allowing me to meet a new friend through your blog.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13683551511993825906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post-41410229731950259852009-09-21T22:18:59.504-04:002009-09-21T22:18:59.504-04:00Thanks Martin,
I have been troubled by this for ...Thanks Martin, <br /><br />I have been troubled by this for some time and have found no reference in scripture to support the rapture. <br /><br />I am still uncertain if I believe in the rapture. Some things must be taken by faith but I do not think this is one of them. There just is not any scriptural evidence.Jeffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post-81648538189253258182009-09-21T21:49:19.059-04:002009-09-21T21:49:19.059-04:00No. Keep going.No. Keep going.Martin LaBarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14629053725732957599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post-5494523045912962642009-09-21T21:35:35.883-04:002009-09-21T21:35:35.883-04:00George, I don't want to hijack Dr. LaBar's...George, I don't want to hijack Dr. LaBar's blog, but I would like to quickly say that a careful reading of Matt 24 makes quite clear, I think, that those "taken" are in fact the ones being judged and not the ones left behind (cf. the analogy to the flood a few verses earlier). Also, you're right that a physical return of Jesus is an historic tenet of the Christian faith--but insofar as I can tell, the earliest Christians weren't expecting to be taken away. The expectation is not redemption from creation, but the redemption of creation.<br /><br />Whatever the case, the important thing is that we're going to be with Jesus in eternity!<br /><br />Dr. LaBar, I hope I haven't imposed too much here. I just get excited about these things!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post-61449002501378659742009-09-21T13:39:25.708-04:002009-09-21T13:39:25.708-04:00Thank you both, gentlemen.
I'm just a simple ...Thank you both, gentlemen.<br /><br />I'm just a simple retired science teacher, and when we start talking about N. T. Wright, I'm lost -- I guess I could read him.<br /><br />I'll try to get to your material, benjiovercash.<br /><br />I agree that all Americans don't agree with <i>Left Behind</i> theology, George. I have serious reservations on it, myself, as indicated in my post, for the reasons given there, and also from the general notion that if a lot of people believe something, they must be wrong. Ken Schenck doesn't buy it, either, although, if I understand him, he says that it can't be ruled out, either.<br /><br />To quote from one version of the Nicene Creed: "We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." I don't know if they were thinking of a physical return, or not.<br /><br />Thanks to both of you.Martin LaBarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14629053725732957599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post-47362877165372843502009-09-21T12:35:24.589-04:002009-09-21T12:35:24.589-04:00Interesting thinking, benjiovercash. I would coun...Interesting thinking, benjiovercash. I would counter that although the idea of redeeming a fallen creation is rich, it has not always been God's modus operandi (i.e. the flood narrative, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.). <br /><br />N.T. Wright's article that you cited was interesting as well. However, speaking as a Christian American, I think he is painting with too wide a brush to assign the Left Behind theology to all Americans. I find his views too dependent on one single section in I Thess. His argument is unconvincing to me in light of Matt. 24, where Jesus said that one will be taken and another left. I am under the impression that a physical return of Jesus Christ to take His followers to heaven (out and away from the present creation) is the orthodox viewpoint of the Christian faith. Am I wrong in this?<br /><br />I enjoyed reading your blog.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13683551511993825906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9661811.post-60184745133770531722009-09-21T11:07:40.727-04:002009-09-21T11:07:40.727-04:00I've become convinced that the rapture actuall...I've become convinced that the rapture actually isn't a biblical concept at all. In 1 Thess 4 when Paul speaks of meeting Jesus "in the air," I think he intends to evoke the common custom of meeting the emperor outside the city gates to greet him and welcome him into his province to rule, and, in N. T. Wright's words, "to give the colony its fully dignity, to rescue it if need be, to subdue local enemies and put everything to rights."<br /><br />Moreover, the biblical salvation-history, I have come to think, is clear that earth--as opposed to some place in the sky--indeed is our home. After all, the Bible begins and ends in Eden. And the idea of redemption of what God created to be "good" (Gen 1) is, to me, so much richer than the notion of being snatched away from earth to dwell somewhere in the clouds.<br /><br />A brief article about this by N. T. Wright is viewable here: http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_Farewell_Rapture.htm<br /><br />Also, at the risk of undeserved self-promotion, I have written a post on this at the Theophilux web site, here: http://new.theophilux.com/2009/05/07/rapture-theology/<br /><br />Sorry about the long comment!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com