In the first place, it was God's flood, not Noah's.
I was studying for my Sunday School lesson, some time ago, and was amazed to read that some people think that there may have been as many as 3,000,000,000 people on earth at the time of the Flood, who were, presumably, drowned. Where did this figure come from, I wondered? What is the evidence for it?
Well, of course, there isn't any evidence for it, but, with the right assumptions, human population growth would have accomplished this.
This figure may have come from a book by Henry Morris, which is excerpted here. If so, that's interesting, because that isn't what Morris actually wrote, according to the excerpt. What he was actually writing about was the human population after the flood, which, he said, could have expanded to billions from the time of the flood to the time he wrote.
This web page simply asserts that the population at the time of Noah "probably numbered at least several billion persons!" So does this one. Neither gives reasons, or documentation, for the assertion.
This page says that there were enough generations (up to 15) from Adam to Noah, which would have been enough time to produce up to a billion people.
All of these are speculation. We just don't know how many people perished in the Flood.
See here for more questions about Noah's flood.
Thanks for reading.
Musings on science, the Bible, and fantastic literature (and sometimes basketball and other stuff).
God speaks to us through the Bible and the findings of science, and we should listen to both types of revelation.
The title is from Psalm 84:11.
The Wikipedia is usually a pretty good reference. I mostly use the World English Bible (WEB), because it is public domain. I am grateful.
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25 comments:
I'm not sure about some of these dates. Most Archaeologists tend to move with the Bible's span of time at least going to 8000 BC. Abraham is claimed to have lived around 2000 BC, which makes it hard to see how 500 years could produce billions of people (if the Flood happened as early as 2500 BC). Plus, the idea that the years of the bible folks being added together is not a good idea either, since most scholars would say that it would be odd. Such a literal reading would be weird since a literal dating would place Abraham well into the years of Jacob, which is probably not the case. It would probably be beneficial to see the years in a way that is not chronologically important.
Very interesting... thanks for the thoughts... all joy, kerry
Thanks, Kerry I am.
rustyfly, I agree with you that we aren't sure of a lot about the chronology of the flood, and, as indicated, I don't think we have a clue as to how many people perished in the Flood, except that there must have been at least a few thousand of them, perhaps many more.
Thanks.
I can't say I have a clue, but I do believe that all of the humans were still able to live together in a semi-stable environment. Considering the tower of babel incident later it seems logical to think that most humans (apart from Cain) would have lived together in a city-like setting.
That said, they didn't have access to skyscraper technology or automobiles so how could they have been more that a few thousand? Tens of thousands at the extreme fringe?
Plus there's the whole murder thing that Cain brought into the human world. I'd say other humans murdered after him. Even though Adam and Eve and their descendants had the potential for truly enormous numbers of offspring the harsh conditions and general depravity of some individuals surely cut many lives short of their potential.
So, again, thousands with tens of thousands at the very extreme end of possibility.
re: superrustyfly
Not that I'm a scholar, but I do remember some college professors explaining some things about this. Generally, the genealogy before the flood cannot be used to accurately date early events because there are at least two significant gaps. Furthermore, most scholars tend to think that many generations of people were simply skipped over. There was no distinction in Hebrew between Father, Grandfather, Great Grandfather, etc. They were all "father" so you just can't trust the genealogies like that. The best proof, however, comes from the new testament. When giving the genealogy of Jesus I believe there are three sets of ten generations given. Other passages in the bible include other individuals in the same genealogies where they overlap so clearly the new testament passage skips some generations. How many we have no way of knowing.
Regarding the math behind billions of people consider this: If Adam and Eve truly lived to be around 900 years old then they could have had 800 children - 400 boys and 400 girls. Thus, humanity with those age levels had the potential for exponential growth on the factor of 400 or even better. It doesn't take many generations to break 1 million or 1 billion. Premature death, disease, and murder surely limited that potential in my opinion.
Thank you, Daniel Smith.
I think you are right about genealogies in the Bible. You are also right about disease and murder, but there may have also been wars, even back then.
The bottom line, of course, is that we just don't know how many people there were back then. We can only make rough guesses, even a few centuries ago, let alone in prehistoric, or very early historic times.
Thanks.
900 years old?
You actually believe that?
So that would make them contemporaries of the Old Kingdom if Egypt (Menes, or Narmer, et al...). So if I understand you well, in less than a thousand years, mankind grows from one couple in a cool garden to millions spread out around the globe (including the Americas).
Why argue...
Thanks, Anonymous. I guess you were responding to a commenter, not to me. I think I pretty well expressed ignorance about the dates, etc., in the actual blog post.
Thanks for your comment.
I have researched this for over 20 years. and teh number I came up with that drowned in the flood...was over 51 billion. With a deathrate, of almot 0 in comparrison to a staggaring birthrate. I used a very concervative number of 1 child every 10 years. Remember that the first people were told to go forth and prosper. when you live an average of 930 years. no diseases, in a perfect global enviroment. if the flood didnt occur in 2500 BC, there would have been over 11 trillion by 2000 bc
Thanks, Anonymous, whoever you are.
Obviously, you, or someone, has made a lot of assumptions, such as that people lived an average of 930 years (Only two people are mentioned as living that long in Genesis 5.) and that there were no diseases, wars, murders, etc. But you may be right. We just don't know.
I'm afraid Anonymous cannot be right. With all of our modern agricultural technology, at most we can make the Earth sustain roughly 20-50 billion humans - and that only for a short time until other finite resources run out. Since those resources still exist in the present day -AND- the ancients surely did not possess our level of technology, the actual number can't be anywhere close to Anonymous' estimate. The math simply doesn't work out.
In my opinion, the actual number could be in the millions given the birthrate but I consider that highly unlikely. Tens-of-thousands seems far, far more reasonable given the lack of transportation beyond riding/walking, infrastructure, etc.
I think you are right, Daniel Smith, but we don't know for sure. Thanks.
The way you get the most out of looking at things is to look at it from the other way 8 people were saved in the Ark it doesn't matter if there were trillions or hundreds of thousand the amount of peopl the amount of people saved were vwere very few less than 1 percent now the end is here and
finding eterna and finding eternal life is l is like catching Noah's boat do you there be that find it,
Thanks, jimmy carter. Jesus warned us about being like the people in flood times, in Luke 17:26, and that's far more important, as you say, than knowing how many people perished in the flood.
hut is the only homes:
Asia had 60% of the population.
China / India / other with 20% in Europe.
8 million people worldwide... at best. 2 million in Europe?
Thanks for your comment, Anonymous. I don't think we can be sure that huts were the only homes. At least some people must have lived in tents, and caves, and perhaps some had more permanent dwellings.
Can one of you explain to me why pre-flood people could not have achieved some relatively high levels of accomplishment? It seems everyone here is depicting them as hunters/gatherers and primitive. Since the flood would likely have obliterated all evidence of their progress, why does this primitive view of them have to be so?
I quote from Genesis, and the passage is about people before the flood, and, apparently, while Adam was still alive, so you have a point:
4:20 Adah gave birth to Jabal, who was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. 4:21 His brother’s name was Jubal, who was the father of all who handle the harp and pipe. 4:22 Zillah also gave birth to Tubal Cain, the forger of every cutting instrument of brass and iron. Tubal Cain’s sister was Naamah.
Thanks for your comment.
In those times. Sin was obviously new. Which means health wasn't a issue. As it is today. So the technology of our time wasn't needed.
But, let's factor in America. 400 million alive now under 100yrs old or China 2 billion people under 100yrs. So it could easily have been 20-50 billion on earth before the flood. Considering that people then lived longer. But, with sin, we don't live as long (healthy). Even today. My generation will never see 75yrs plus. Like my grandparents did.
Thank you for your comment, Anonymous. We just don't know how many people lived in Noah's time.
The New Testament refers to the world before Noah as "the old world". I believe that world was very different than our world. To say we can only feed 20-50 billion people is a strange statement since today's world is told to be able to all fit comfortably into the state of Texas. The population of the world we will define as 7 billion. What is the density of a large US city, say New York City as a whole? Well, New York City is 790 square kilometers, and has a population around 8.3 million people, giving us a density of about 10,500 people per square kilometer. Now granted, NYC is not the wide-open spaces, but it is a density that millions live with in a space-loving nation like the US, so it shouldn't be considered too packed. So how much land would we need to house all 7 billion of us if we lived in such density? Well, we would need 666,265 square kilometers. A big area, no? Well, let's look further...
Upon examining the US, we find out that Texas fits the bill nicely. In fact, Texas has 671,877.17 square kilometers! Which is, in fact, more than the area we need to house all 7 billion of us at typical New York City densities. Meaning every man, woman, and child living and breathing on the face of the Earth could fit in relative comfort within the land territory of the State of Texas.
So I would say the land area remaining is by far sufficient to feed 50 billion people. The old world was very different, there was no rain before the Flood and the canopy above the earth (water) deflected the dangerous X-Rays away from earth. The result was a Greenhouse effect where the north and south poles would have no less than 2'degrees difference from the equator. It is why dinosaurs are found in Antarctica and Alaska, trees 100' tall where today no tree can grow. Some conservative formulas show that the world could have had TRILLIONS of people at the time of the Flood. People DID live up to 900 years and more then, that was primarily due to the canopy previously mentioned.
Thank you, Wolfwredroses 77.
Again, we just don't know about most of these things.
For example, it is by no means certain that there was no rain before the Flood. See http://sunandshield.blogspot.com/2009/11/did-it-rain-before-flood.html for evidence that there may have been, from past great theologians, including Calvin and Wesley (who may have been wrong, of course) and http://sunandshield.blogspot.com/2009/01/noahs-flood-was-there-rain-before-it.html for scientific evidence for previous rain (where did the rivers, mentioned in early Genesis, come from, is one matter considered in that post and the articles it links to.)
Many Bible scholars reject the idea of a Canopy, and I think, that includes some prominent Young-Earth creationists.
We just don't know about most of this, and God doesn't seem to think that we need to. We surely don't need to for salvation.
I would like to post my comment here. I believe that the whole truth is revealed in the Bible, especially the canons we have now. But have you considered the other extra-biblical books? There are a lot of questions left unanswered by the present canon, that are clarified by extra-biblical books. Take for example, the Flood...
The Bible describes that time as "people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage right up to the day when Noah went into the ark." Matthew 24:38; Luke 17:26. Genesis reveals that the earth was full of wickedness but did not clarify why it become like that. It didn't gave the detail where Cain and Seth, and all the others, get their wives. But with the accounts in Jasher, Jubilees and other extra-biblical books, we could understand the whole point of the Flood.
Was there a campaign to discredit some revelations so that some agenda are protected? Just asking....
I believe that the pre-Noah population could reach trillions of people. Here are my reasons:
1. Genesis 7:20 states that the water that covered the earth reached high up to 15 cubits on top of the highest mountain. Lets say that Mt. Everest were the highest mountain, the waters reached up to 3,000 feet above the sea level, enough to cover the whole earth.... This water is also enough to kill every thing that were not inside the ARK.
2. 2 Edras Chapter 6 retold the story of God's creation. In verses 43, the Book of Edras reveals that the pre-flood world is composed of 1/7 [one-seventh] of water and the rest [6/7; six-seventh] is land. Thus, the pre-flood world is bigger than we have today where the oceans is 2/3 [two-thirds] of the whole earth... There is more land for Noah's generation to live than today. So if the world today can accommodate, let's say 10-15 billion people, pre-flood population is MUCH, MUCH BIGGER.
3. Given the life span of persons living in those days, the birth rates could be higher. Mortality could be just like what we have today, but 1 to 2 percent growth rate per year from year 1 to year 1600 [Adam to Noah's Time], could easily get us to billions in number. We have to remember that the people then may healthier so each couple could bear as many as 20-30 children....
4. Scientist today tells us that the OIL DEPOSITS we have under our oil fields came from accumulated and decayed substances of living creatures that lived long time ago.... We have extracted billions to trillions of oil since man discovered fire, thus, it is safe to conclude that an enormous amount of flesh is needed to produce the substantial deposits of oil under our earth. Where could that "flesh" come from but the people and animals that died out during the flood... Genesis reveals that the floods was not sudden enough, it took 40 days and 40 nights for the waters to lift up the ark, so, there was time for people to gather in one place to "catch the last ride" into the ark. This could be the reason why some places have bigger oil deposits than others..
5. Archaeological discoveries reveals an advanced pre-Flood world where people have reached a civilization that could accommodate millions of inhabitants.
6. Just as the phrase "AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, SO WILL BE THIS DAY" simply mean the number of people living today could approximate the number of people in Noah's time. No wonder, the earth was filled with wickedness, enough for GOD to decree its eradication...
But wait, that number could be higher!!! WHY? BECAUSE THE WORLD IS MUCH BIGGER IN LAND MASS THAN WE HAVE TODAY!!!
Thank you for your comment. I'll try to respond more completely, but don't have time to do so now.
Among other things, I need to look at Edras (Or is that Esdras?), before posting a more complete response.
Thanks again for your comment.
As I indicated in the post, and response to previous comments, we just don't know, nor, I believe, can know, how many people perished in the flood. There is, as you probably know, controversy among Bible scholars as to whether there actually was a world-wide flood. Maybe yes, maybe not. One possible explanation is that people lived in the then-dry Mediterranean basin, or on the Black Sea floor, and water broke in to whichever of these they were living in.
Now, to your points.
1. If the water was that far above Mt. Everest, (but see my opening paragraph in this comment, about whether there even was a worldwide flood) it was much higher than you indicate. However high it was, I'm not sure how that tells us anything about how many people perished in that flood.
2. 2 Esdras is not in the canon, at least not for most Protestants, and I'm not sure it can be relied on.
3. Possibly so.
4. The oil deposits came, according to the Wikipedia, mostly from algae and zooplankton, not from dead dinosaurs, or whatever dead animals there might have been: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum
5. Maybe.
6. Taking "As in the days of Noah, etc.," (Matthew 24:37-9) to mean that there were as many people in Noah's day as there were when Jesus said that, or as there are now, or as any number at all, seems to me to be a real stretch. Jesus seems to have been talking about the sinful condition of humans, in His day (or perhaps ours) in comparison to Noah's day, not about how many people there were, or are.
To conclude, thank you for your interest. But I don't see how knowing how many people there were then is possible, without making a lot of untestable assumptions (which some of the commmentators above have done) nor, if we did know, how that would help advance Christ's kingdom.
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