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Showing posts with label adultery. Show all posts
Showing posts with label adultery. Show all posts

Thursday, April 13, 2023

Women of the Bible: Potiphar's wife

Genesis 39:1 Joseph was brought down to Egypt. Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh’s, the captain of the guard, an Egyptian, bought him from the hand of the Ishmaelites that had brought him down there. 2 Yahweh was with Joseph, and he was a prosperous man. He was in the house of his master the Egyptian. 3 His master saw that Yahweh was with him, and that Yahweh made all that he did prosper in his hand. 4 Joseph found favor in his sight. He ministered to him, and Potiphar made him overseer over his house, and all that he had he put into his hand. 5 From the time that he made him overseer in his house, and over all that he had, Yahweh blessed the Egyptian’s house for Joseph’s sake. Yahweh’s blessing was on all that he had, in the house and in the field. 6 He left all that he had in Joseph’s hand. He didn’t concern himself with anything, except for the food which he ate.

Joseph was well-built and handsome. 7 After these things, his master’s wife set her eyes on Joseph; and she said, “Lie with me.”

8 But he refused, and said to his master’s wife, “Behold, my master doesn’t know what is with me in the house, and he has put all that he has into my hand. 9 No one is greater in this house than I am, and he has not kept back anything from me but you, because you are his wife. How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?”

10 As she spoke to Joseph day by day, he didn’t listen to her, to lie by her, or to be with her. 11 About this time, he went into the house to do his work, and there were none of the men of the house inside. 12 She caught him by his garment, saying, “Lie with me!”

He left his garment in her hand, and ran outside. 13 When she saw that he had left his garment in her hand, and had run outside, 14 she called to the men of her house, and spoke to them, saying, “Behold, he has brought a Hebrew in to us to mock us. He came in to me to lie with me, and I cried with a loud voice. 15 When he heard that I lifted up my voice and cried, he left his garment by me, and ran outside.” 16 She laid up his garment by her, until his master came home. 17 She spoke to him according to these words, saying, “The Hebrew servant, whom you have brought to us, came in to me to mock me, 18 and as I lifted up my voice and cried, he left his garment by me, and ran outside.”

19 When his master heard the words of his wife, which she spoke to him, saying, “This is what your servant did to me,” his wrath was kindled. 20 Joseph’s master took him, and put him into the prison, the place where the king’s prisoners were bound, and he was there in custody. 21 But Yahweh was with Joseph, and showed kindness to him, and gave him favor in the sight of the keeper of the prison. 22 The keeper of the prison committed to Joseph’s hand all the prisoners who were in the prison. Whatever they did there, he was responsible for it. 23 The keeper of the prison didn’t look after anything that was under his hand, because Yahweh was with him; and that which he did, Yahweh made it prosper. 

Tuesday, February 21, 2023

Women of the Bible: Gomer

I doubt if you have ever heard of a woman named after Gomer, a Biblical character. (There are some men, actual or fictional, named Gomer, such as Gomer Pyle, of Mayberry.) There was at least one male Gomer in the Bible, a grandson of Noah. There are good reasons for not naming a daughter Gomer today.

Hosea 1:1 Yahweh’s word that came to Hosea the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel. 2 When Yahweh spoke at first by Hosea, Yahweh said to Hosea, “Go, take for yourself a wife of prostitution and children of unfaithfulness; for the land commits great adultery, forsaking Yahweh.”

3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; and she conceived, and bore him a son.

Part of chapter 2 of Hosea portrays Gomer as a rebel, then as received kindly by God.

Hosea 3:1 Yahweh said to me, “Go again, love a woman loved by another, and an adulteress, even as Yahweh loves the children of Israel, though they turn to other gods, and love cakes of raisins.”

2 So I bought her for myself for fifteen pieces of silver and a homer and a half of barley. 3 I said to her, “You shall stay with me many days. You shall not play the prostitute, and you shall not be with any other man. I will also be so toward you.”

There are several Bible stories, including this one, which compare a relationship between husband and wife with God's relationship with us. In no case, if there were problems with the relationship, was the problem God's fault.

Thanks for reading.

 

Monday, February 06, 2023

Women of the Bible: Bathsheba

Bathsheba: 2 Samuel 11:1 At the return of the year, at the time when kings go out, David sent Joab, and his servants with him, and all Israel; and they destroyed the children of Ammon, and besieged Rabbah. But David stayed at Jerusalem. 2 At evening, David arose from his bed and walked on the roof of the king’s house. From the roof, he saw a woman bathing, and the woman was very beautiful to look at. 3 David sent and inquired after the woman. One said, “Isn’t this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, Uriah the Hittite’s wife?” 4 David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in to him, and he lay with her (for she was purified from her uncleanness); and she returned to her house. 5 The woman conceived; and she sent and told David, and said, “I am with child.” 6 David sent to Joab, “Send me Uriah the Hittite.” Joab sent Uriah to David. 7 When Uriah had come to him, David asked him how Joab did, and how the people fared, and how the war prospered. 8 David said to Uriah, “Go down to your house and wash your feet.” Uriah departed out of the king’s house, and a gift from the king was sent after him. 9 But Uriah slept at the door of the king’s house with all the servants of his lord, and didn’t go down to his house. 10 When they had told David, saying, “Uriah didn’t go down to his house,” David said to Uriah, “Haven’t you come from a journey? Why didn’t you go down to your house?”

11 Uriah said to David, “The ark, Israel, and Judah, are staying in tents; and my lord Joab and the servants of my lord, are encamped in the open field. Shall I then go into my house to eat and to drink, and to lie with my wife? As you live, and as your soul lives, I will not do this thing!”

12 David said to Uriah, “Stay here today also, and tomorrow I will let you depart.” So Uriah stayed in Jerusalem that day, and the next day. 13 When David had called him, he ate and drank before him; and he made him drunk. At evening, he went out to lie on his bed with the servants of his lord, but didn’t go down to his house. 14 In the morning, David wrote a letter to Joab, and sent it by the hand of Uriah. 15 He wrote in the letter, saying, “Send Uriah to the forefront of the hottest battle, and retreat from him, that he may be struck, and die.”

16 When Joab kept watch on the city, he assigned Uriah to the place where he knew that valiant men were. 17 The men of the city went out, and fought with Joab. Some of the people fell, even of David’s servants; and Uriah the Hittite died also. 18 Then Joab sent and told David all the things concerning the war; 19 and he commanded the messenger, saying, “When you have finished telling all the things concerning the war to the king, 20 it shall be that, if the king’s wrath arise, and he asks you, ‘Why did you go so near to the city to fight? Didn’t you know that they would shoot from the wall? 21 Who struck Abimelech the son of Jerubbesheth? Didn’t a woman cast an upper millstone on him from the wall, so that he died at Thebez? Why did you go so near the wall?’ then you shall say, ‘Your servant Uriah the Hittite is also dead.’”

22 So the messenger went, and came and showed David all that Joab had sent him for. 23 The messenger said to David, “The men prevailed against us, and came out to us into the field, and we were on them even to the entrance of the gate. 24 The shooters shot at your servants from off the wall; and some of the king’s servants are dead, and your servant Uriah the Hittite is also dead.”

25 Then David said to the messenger, “Tell Joab, ‘Don’t let this thing displease you, for the sword devours one as well as another. Make your battle stronger against the city, and overthrow it.’ Encourage him.”

26 When Uriah’s wife heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she mourned for her husband. 27 When the mourning was past, David sent and took her home to his house, and she became his wife, and bore him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased Yahweh.

Bathsheba gave birth to the child, but the child died.

2 Samuel 12:24 David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in to her, and lay with her. She bore a son, and he called his name Solomon. Yahweh loved him; 25 and he sent by the hand of Nathan the prophet, and he named him Jedidiah, [which means “loved by Yahweh”] for Yahweh’s sake.

Later on, long enough that David expected Solomon to become king in his place, Bathsheba agreed to speak to David for Adonijah, who was expecting to be king. See the post about Abishag for more on this story.

Back to the beginning of the Bathsheba story. Is it possible that she was bathing where she knew David could see her? Was it a common practice to bathe on the roof top? Should David have been at war, rather than resting in Jerusalem? Did Bathsheba submit willingly, or did David rape her? Did she gladly become David’s wife? What was her relationship with David’s other wives? Why didn’t she tell Adonijah that she wouldn’t speak for him? (See the post on Abishag. Possibly because she had promised to do so before she knew what he wanted.) We don’t know any of these answers. 

Thursday, April 25, 2019

Homosexuality: Questions and Answers

On June 13, 2009, I posted a rather long discussion of homosexuality. I tried to be kind to all readers and commenters. There were quite a few of both. Since that time, that post has slipped into obscurity. As I understand it, search engines look for newer posts first, usually. So I'm posting it again, hoping that others, who haven't known it was there, will read it, and comment.

March 4, 2023: Someone pointed out that, although scriptural references to homosexuality seem to be against such behavior, none of these cases were about a committed monogamous relationship between two men, or between two women. 

Back to original post, and (comments) which has not been changed: There are is another reason for re-posting. One of the currently leading Democratic Presidential candidates is a practicing homosexual. And the apparent leading Republican candidate is a serial adulterer. If you want to know more about these things, do a web search for "Trump adultery," or for "Butigeig." (Butigeig spoke about his faith in an interview reported by Relevant. Here's a Trump adultery timeline in Newsweek.)

In this post, I'm not going to discuss the question of whether being an active homosexual, or a serial adulterer, makes one unacceptable, in God's sight, of being President of the US. Nor do I wish to discuss the question of whether believing voters could conscientiously support either of these types of person. Perhaps in further posts.

The last reason for re-posting is that I posted, on January 11, 2011, a comment about the sexual abuse scandals in the Catholic church. I should not have written as if Catholic clergy are/were the only abusers. They aren't. I have since read of a sexual abuse scandal involving Southern Baptist youth ministers in Texas. and of another abuse case in a Jewish training institution. Unfortunately, there are probably a lot more cases of ministers betraying their trust, their profession, and their God by such behavior.

Here's the original post:

Saturday, June 13, 2009


Homosexuality: Questions and Answers

Christians often make one of two mistakes about homosexuality. Some say that there is nothing wrong with homosexual activity, and some say that it is the worst (or the only) sin. Neither of these is consistent with the Bible. The most important question related to homosexuality is the authority of the Bible.There are only a few direct scriptural references to homosexuality: Genesis 19:1-5, 12; Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:24-27; I Corinthians 6:9-20; I Timothy 1:10; Jude 1:7. (Deuteronomy 23:17-18 probably refers to homosexual prostitution.) Some, who mostly fall into the first error above, say that:
Genesis 19 is about gang rape, not homosexuality Ezekiel 16:48-50, Isaiah 1:10-17, Jeremiah 23:14 and Matthew 10:11-15 indicate that homosexuality was not the primary sin of the inhabitants of Sodom -it was lack of justice, lack of hospitality, and rejection of God - but see Jude 1:7, which says something about sexual sin;
that the passages in Leviticus and Romans aren't relevant for today's practicing homosexuals, because they condemn unnatural acts by heterosexuals;
while today's homosexuals are doing what is natural for them;
that I Corinthians and I Timothy are against pederasty, not the homosexuality of today.

These arguments may have some validity, but there is a strong biblical argument against homosexual activity. It is not from the texts cited above (although they are part of the evidence) but from the scriptural portrayal of heterosexual fidelity as God's ideal for humans, from the earliest parts of Genesis to the portrayal of the church as the bride of Christ in Revelation. (See Genesis 2:18-24, Exodus 20:14, Proverbs 5, The Song of Solomon, Ezekiel 16, Hosea 1-3, Matthew 19:4-6, John 2:1-11, Revelation 19:6-8, and elsewhere.)

1. Is homosexuality wrong? Yes and no. Based on scripture, homosexual activity is wrong. Homosexual tendencies are not wrong, any more than heterosexual ones, unless those tendencies are due to wrong choices. If I am attracted to someone other than my wife, because I have heterosexual tendencies, and act on it, that's wrong. Having the tendencies isn't wrong. (Acting on it doesn't mean just adultery or fornication--deliberately exposing myself to pornography, or lusting after movie stars, etc., are ways of acting on heterosexual tendency, and acting sinfully.) It isn't wrong to have heterosexual tendencies, unless those tendencies are due to wrong choices, so why should it be wrong to have homosexual tendencies?

2. Is homosexual tendency built in? In some cases. Recent evidence indicates that pre-natal hormonal exposure is important. There is probably some genetic influence. But some people choose homosexuality over heterosexuality. (James Dobson believes that homosexuality is due to how a child was raised, which is probably part of the story. If it were all of the story, the cause would be neither a choice by the person or some built-in factor.)

3. Isn't having homosexual tendencies, but not being able to act on them without sinning, unfair? God is not ever unfair. He may demand more of some than others, in certain aspects of their lives. All of us are born with tendencies that we must control in order to live Christian lives. It isn't just homosexuals that are called to life-long celibacy -- some heterosexuals are. All heterosexuals are, until they are married.

4. Can homosexuals form long-lasting same-sex relationships? Apparently. However, this often doesn't happen. (It often doesn't happen with heterosexual marriage relationships, either, but that's another sad story.) Are such relationships identical to stable Christian heterosexual marriages, in God's sight? No. They aren't God's plan. You could have a long-lasting sexual relationship with a prostitute, or even a dog, but the fact that it's long-lasting doesn't make it right. 

5. Can homosexuals become happy heterosexuals? At least some of the time. (See 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.) Probably not all of the time.

6. What should be the Christian attitude toward homosexuals? Practicing homosexuals, like practicing gossips, gluttons or thieves, are sinners. We should love them, but not love their sin. Overt sinners should not be leaders in churches, and certainly not pastors.

7. Is homosexuality the worst threat to marriage in North America?
No. If there were no homosexuals at all, marriage would still be under continuing and violent attack from its real worst enemy, namely that a woman and a man don't make Jesus Christ Lord of their relationship.


8. Is homosexual activity the worst sin? No. See what Jesus said in comparing Sodom to the people of his day, in Matthew 11:20-24, and Luke 10:1-12. Romans 1 indicates that homosexual behavior is a symptom of a worse sin, idolatry or unbelief.

Homosexual activity is not even the worst sexual sin -- it's not part of the 10 Commandments. (Adultery, of course, is prohibited in the 10 Commandments.) There's a list of curses for sinful activity in Deuteronomy 27:15-26. Four such were curses for sexual misconduct, and they didn't include homosexual activity. (That does not, of course, make homosexual activity acceptable for Christians.)

There are some other topics that I wish to mention briefly.

Intersexuality, or ambiguous anatomical sexual anatomy
(See Wikipedia article.) There is controversy over classification issues, but it seems that from 0.05% to as many as 1.7% of babies born have genital anatomy that is not normal. What does that have to do with homosexuality? This -- not everyone is born "normal." People do not choose to be born with ambiguous external genitals, nor do they become this way because of the way that their parents raised them, which relates, at least somewhat, to the questions of how people become homosexual, and God's fairness to them. So far as I know, Christian thinkers have not considered this phenomenon at all, let alone in depth.

Civil Unions
Should Christians oppose civil unions? A civil union would give homosexual couples some legal rights, such as joint ownership of property, and hospital visitation rights, but would not have the same type of recognition as a marriage. This is a difficult question, and I haven't resolved it in my own mind. If I am offered the chance to vote on the issue, I will try to make up my mind, God helping me. On the one hand, it seems unfair to deny a person, who has been a caregiver, hospital visitation rights for the person he or she has cared for, regardless of their sexual preferences. On the other hand, this might be a step toward full recognition of marriage between homosexuals, on the same basis as between heterosexuals, and, as indicated above, I do not believe that a homosexual couple can have God-approved marriage.

A church-approved marriage does not need to be the same as a state-approved marriage, although, often, it is. Couples, even totally unchurched couples, often seem to believe that they have a right to a church wedding, and churches often comply, sometimes even without any pre-marital counseling. Probably many churches, including my own, have, occasionally, had marriage ceremonies between a man and a woman performed that united couples that God really didn't want together.

Should Homosexuals be allowed to join churches?
I would draw upon the example of the early church, except that I am not clear as to whether the early church had membership in the same way that many churches do today. Let me stipulate that a church member is someone that the congregation, or its leaders, believes is a converted Christian, who is in agreement with basic Bible doctrine, and Christian practice, as understood by that church.

I don't see any reason to deny membership to a person with homosexual tendencies, as indicated above. Based on 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, persons engaged in homosexual activity should not be taken into membership, any more than greedy people, or swindlers, should be. They are mentioned in the same list as homosexuals. The good news is that the same passage states that some of the current members of the Corinthian church used to do some of these things, but had been redeemed from such activities, presumably including homosexuality.

Thanks for reading.

*  *  *  *  *

Added Jan 26, 2013: Here's a later post, on adultery and fornication. 

Added July 29, 2014: Here's a later post, on the idea that Jesus referred to homosexuality without condemning it. 

Added January 8, 2015: Here's my post on what's wrong with the political left/right in the US

Added January 18, 2015: One of the possible dangers, for the near future, for Christians, is that merely saying that the Bible says that homosexual activity is sinful may be called illegal hate speech, no matter what the motivation or tone of the statement. In other words, even answering a question: "Does the Bible say that homosexual activity is sinful?" with a "Yes, I believe that it does" may lead to legal action.

Added May 27, 2016: Benjamin L. Corey writes that some Christians are changing their attitude toward homosexuals, and indicates why this is so. (He thinks it's a good thing, by the way.)

On June 8, 2016, I added scriptural references to the first paragraph. I recommend this post on scripture and homosexuality by Ken Schenck.

On June 9, 2017, I found this post from Sojourners, which gives 10 Bible passages which, according to the article, indicate that the church should not condemn persons who are practicing homosexual behavior. 

This is a post, by me, arguing that marriage was not a sacrament in New Testament times.


33 comments:

Anonymous said...
You've given me additional insight in how to best deal with my niece. I do love her and I've told her that, but I don't condone her lifestyle. When I pray for her I ask for God to free her from the bondage she doesn't know she's in.
Lizabeth
groovyoldlady said...
Excellent post. Well reasoned and thoroughly Biblical.

However, I do take exception to your statement, "God is not ever unfair." He is BLESSEDLY unfair, or else He would allow us all to suffer the due penalty of our own sin. Instead, He most unfairly paid the penalty for our sin and just as unfairly imputed to us the righteousness of Christ.

:-D
Martin LaBar said...
You are right, groovyoldlady. I should have said that God does not punish us unfairly, I guess.
Anonymous said...
I like this post. I noticed you put the two extreme views of homosexuality in the first paragraph. It's funny that neither of those takes scripture seriously. Both would end up being uber liberal theology. Kudos.
ClassyChassy said...
Good post. I have come across some bloggers who post in favor of homosexuality - that it is fine with God, blah blah blah --I have trouble with that, and you have written all of the reasons right here. Since I do not know these people, I simply say nothing, and leave no comment if I finish reading what they have to say. Congrats on your boldness here today.
Keetha Broyles said...
Appears that TWO of my blog regulars made their way over here AND commented (several others have told me they came) and ONE of my blog regulars became a follower!!

Now you have more readers!!!
Martin LaBar said...
Thanks, anonymous.

Yes, that was my point, superrustyfly.

ClassyChassy, I wasn't bold. I doubt seriously if anyone who believes homosexual activity is compatible with God's will will even read this blog. I hope I did put forward the main scriptural reason why it is sinful, as well as some stern admonishment for those who believe that, as some say, "God hates fags," except that they won't read this, either. Oh, well.

Thanks, Keetha!
Daniel Smith said...
Great post. You've compiled the most comprehensive collection of information on this topic that I have ever seen - and you even included information on intersexuality. I didn't think there was any information on this topic and you have confirmed that.

I most definitely want to hear more on this topic as you have time to research and think through this complicated issue. I have a close friend that is openly gay who I grew up with. He is still a friend and a good one at that, but I question how to deal with and accept his sexual preference choices. Your guidelines are informative and I appreciate them.

I'd also like to add that I completely disagree with the notion that there is a genetic basis for homosexuality. Much research has been done on this for years and nothing has come of it. The only bit of supporting evidence I've ever heard is the information you presented regarding prenatal hormones - and I doubt that will make much of an impact compared to upbringing and personal choices.

Oh, and you might explicitly include the David and Jonathan verses where David loves Jonathan that some include as a depiction of homosexuality. It's the passage where Jonathan shoots arrows and what says is code for David to flee or stay.
Martin LaBar said...
Thanks, Daniel Smith.

I didn't include the passages about David and Jonathan, or the one where John is described as the disciple Jesus loved, or the one on the rich young ruler. In the first place, I was looking only for verses that are against homosexual activity, not those that might support it. In the second place, I don't think any of these incidents were related to sexual activity at all -- as C. S. Lewis pointed out, there's more than one Greek word for "love," and it's too bad that that isn't true of English, also. Only one of those words has to do with sexual attraction, as I understand it, where, in English, we seem to have moved to where "love" means "sex," often without much love, in our minds.

David, of course, had several wives, and children, and his most glaring sin was related to his lusting after Bathsheba's body. He certainly wasn't an exclusive homosexual, and I don't believe that he was a homosexual at all.

Thanks again.
Anonymous said...
Hello,

I've read a few of your blogs and believe that you are well-studied, fair, and open-minded in your posts as well as comment responses.

I am a homosexual male. I feel like I was born like this, but I suppose I'll never know for sure... I am also a practicing Catholic and come from a very conservative background. It should then be no surprise that when I discovered this about me, I did everything in my power to "change" myself. I believed there was something wrong with me. Everything I did to fight it led to more pain, and as a result, anger - especially with God. (This anger is no more... I understand that God gives everyone different challenges and trials through which to work.)

My entire story would be a book so I'll summarize here. I became aware of my homosexuality at 16, fought it for approximately 8 years, and began dating and learning about the "gay lifestyle" at 24. I'm 31 now.

As I stated earlier, I believe you to be fair. I also believe you well-intentioned. So I wanted to ask you to pray and reflect on this question - After much reflection on my part, I believe with all my heart that two men or two women together in a loving relationship is not morally wrong. I believe God loves those couples and does not disaprove. If I am wrong, why do I still feel with all my heart that I am not? Wouldn't God find a way to convince me I am wrong?

I believe I can speak fairly objectively in my belief. Though I am gay, currently, I am not dating. After much reflection, I feel relationships are not good for me. I seem to be happiest being single. This fact, however, does not impact my belief about homosexual relationships...

I am a teacher so I will refrain from posting my full name. I trust you understand. Also, if there is anything you would like to know about me or just wish to engage in a thoughtful discussion on the topic, I am willing. It would just have to be outside of a public blog. Thank you for your time.

David
Martin LaBar said...
Thanks for your comment, David.

I will try to pray for you and your situation. Let me try to respond.

Unfortunately, our hearts can mislead us. as Genesis 6:5, Jeremiah 11:8, and many other Bible verses indicate. As Jeremiah 17:9 put it: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (KJV) As I indicated in my post, I believe that the Bible has enough on this, especially the emphasis throughout it on heterosexual marriage as the norm, and blessed by God, to convince us of God's ideas on the subject, regardless of our own hearts.
As I understand the Bible, you should not be in a sexual relationship with someone, regardless of your homosexual tendencies.

I sympathize with you, and understand that I may be wrong in anything I have said about this issue. Also, I know that I am not looking at this in the same way you do, that is, from the standpoint of a person who is sexually attracted to a person of their own sex.

I'm sorry, but I don't think I have any special expertise in this area, and don't think that I could be of more help in this.

God help you. He loves you.

Thanks for your comment.
Andrew Ryan said...
Martin, 1) what is your opinion of the Archbishop of Canterbury's views on homosexuality? He said words to the affect that he doesn't see gays in loving, long-term relationships as being any more sinful than straight couples. His position can't be put down to ignorance of scripture - he's renowned as a biblical scholar.

2) Gay men are generally characterised as being more promiscuous then heterosexual men. I don't know much about gay culture, but I gather that the characterisation is probably true.

However, isn't this more down to the fact that men in general are more promiscuous than women? Straight men's promiscuity is limited by the women they can hook up with. Gay men don't have this limitation.

The evidence for this is that when straight men get rich or famous, they find it a lot easier to get women, and they tend to become as promiscuous as gay men.

The other factor is that gay men cannot marry. We're always being told that marriage stabilises people, encourages them to stick out relationships. I don't know if this is true, but if it is, would it not follow that denying gays the ability to marry would effectively be encouraging promiscuity?

This is similar to the fallacy that pigs are dirty creatures, therefore we keep them in muddy styes, which makes them dirty, reinforcing our original misconception. In other words, people say gays are too promiscuous to marry (an institution we believe discourages promiscuity), and then the same people point to all the promiscuous unmarried gay people as evidence.

Andrew - ar@wlv.ac.uk
Martin LaBar said...
Thanks, Andrew.

My reaction to the Archbishop is that it is possible to be a Biblical scholar and still deny what the Bible says. Whether that's what the Archbishop is doing, I don't know. It is possible, of course, that I am mis-reading the Bible. But I read it as indicating that homosexual sexual activity, even within a long-term relationship, is not God's best plan for humans, and is sinful.

In the US, and probably elsewhere, churches have sanctioned heterosexual marriages when not all such should be sanctioned, for any number of reasons, including immaturity of the partners, lack of real commitment to each other, and the partners not having any other relationship with the church. Ideally, I think the church should sanction a lot fewer marriages than the state allows, and that would be true if there were no such thing as homosexuality. However, that's not the way we do it, and I think the church sanctions a lot of heterosexual marriages that God doesn't.

I'm not sure that I oppose state-sanctioned marriage between homosexual partners, for some of the reasons you give, and for fairness -- why should a homosexual caregiver who would have been a spouse if homosexual marriage were allowed, be denied hospital visiting rights, for example?

But a God-sanctioned marriage has to be between a man and a woman, who are committed to each other, and to God, as I understand the Bible. Therefore, I oppose church-sanctioned marriages between homosexual partners.

Thanks for your comment.
Andrew Ryan said...
Martin, thanks for taking the time to reply. I've one other question. Some of the Christians I know who have no problem with homosexuality, I've asked them how they reconcile the 'anti-gay' passages in the bible with their stance.

A reply I've heard a couple of times is that those are OT passages, and that if they took such passages literally they'd also have to also take literally all the passages that condoned slavery. (Googling 'bible condones slavery' brings up many examples).

Is it not special pleading to reject those 'pro-slavery' passages, but not do the same for the 'anti-gay' parts?
Martin LaBar said...
Thanks, Andrew Ryan.

It is, indeed, dangerous to specially plead for something. Perhaps I, and other Christians, have done so in the matter of homosexuality.

It is also dangerous to say that we know better than the Bible.

As I read the New Testament, it isn't pro-slavery, but it accepts slavery, and some other things, such as the inferior status of women in Jewish society, as part of the culture. Christ didn't come so much to re-make culture (He didn't defeat the Romans!) as to re-make people, one at a time. Some Roman soldiers became His followers. A long time later, Christians led the fight to defeat slavery, relying, I guess, on their sense that it was wrong. They had some Biblical support. There's the Golden Rule -- they didn't want to be slaves, so why should anyone else have to be? There are also as admonitions, in both Testaments, to be just to the poor, and slaves were (and are) as poor as you can get.

My response to your question about the Old Testament is two-fold.

First, the Bible is much more a pro-heterosexuality book than it is an anti-homosexuality book, and this includes the New Testament, through Revelation.

Second, saying that the New Testament doesn't touch on homosexuality is just plain wrong. I referenced either five or six (depending on how you count) passages that deal with it in my post.

Thanks again.
Andrew Ryan said...
Martin, thanks again for taking the time to respond to my post. It is much appreciated. Thanks also for your Intelligent Design post.
Andrew, UK.
Martin LaBar said...
Thanks, Andrew Ryan.
Anonymous said...
I am the "David" that wrote the Jan 15th post. Sorry I've not thanked you for your response earlier, but it's been a busy month to say the least. Thank you again for your prayers and words. I think God will find a way to answer the questions I have. Peace be with you.

David
Martin LaBar said...
Thanks for your response, anonymous. God help us all.
Anon said...
"It doesn't make sense to put a church member with known homosexual tendencies in charge of children or youth groups"

Evil.
I don't have the energy at the moment to fully argue this article, and although I do think you are ignorant of what exactly you're saying, and so I forgive you; it is evil and it is bigotry.
Martin LaBar said...
Thank you for taking the time to comment, Anon, whoever you are.

If what I said was evil, I'm sorry. It is also true that heterosexuals have done some nasty things to children who were their responsibility in church children's work.
Megan said...
Thanks for this Dr. LaBar, It is obvious that your post has gotten people to think. Could you clarify homosexual tendencies? Do you mean someone who tends to be tempted in that area? I recently saw an interesting hypothetical on another blog that i will pose to you. Say a man is in a now legal marriage relationship with another man and gets saved. He might feel that to "divorce" would be sinful. The first thing that came to my mind was that since homosexual behavior is sin and homosexual marriage not recognized by God then it is not divorce but that is coming from a heterosexual female! What would be your take on this?
Martin LaBar said...
Thanks, Megan.

Homosexual tendencies mean that a person is sexually attracted to someone, or several someones, of the same sex as they are. And, yes, this is a form of temptation.

As to your hypothetical question, that's a tough one. I guess I'd agree with you that homosexual marriage is not recognized by God, so this wouldn't be the same as divorce. And I would further state that it is important to get out of a relationship or situation that is sinful right away. But I can also see that there might be legal or moral ties between a homosexual couple, for example they might own a house jointly, or they might have agreed to share expenses, or a pet, in some way. In such cases, just as with a divorce between heterosexuals, more than a mere sexual relationship is involved, and separating might involve temptations to deceive or be greedy or slanderous in the process.
Anonymous said...
Hello Dr. LaBar!

Thank you for your blog posts! They are very insightful!
I recently wrote a blog comment in response to your entry on homosexuality last year (the one on June 12, 2009). I am a "newbie" when it comes to arguments on homosexuality. If you have the time, please read it over--it would be greatly appreciated!
Martin LaBar said...
Thanks, Anonymous, whoever you are.

I read and commented on the other comment.
Anonymous said...
Thank you, Dr. LaBar, for your words! (I finally got around to reading this post!). It was truly a relief to hear someone comment on the many aspects of the homosexuality issue in a cohearrent, unbiased way!.
I replied back to your comment from the June 12, 2009 comment. I also wanted to you know that from here on out, I will post to this more recent blog post if I want to reply back.

Thanks again,
Callie (that is my online pen name)
Martin LaBar said...
Thanks, Anonymous/Callie.

By the way, Blogger (this is a Blogger blog) sends any comments to the blog author as e-mail, so it doesn't matter where you comment.
Anonymous said...
Not all homosexual people are paedophiles, and not all paedophiles are homosexual.

I find your implication that a homosexual person should not be trusted with young people to be offensive and inaccurate.

I am sure your words were well-intentioned, but remarks such as those you made about this subject undermine your credibility.
Martin LaBar said...
Thanks, anonymous.

I stand corrected. Not all people with homosexual tendencies are paedophiles.

Some are, if I understand recent tragic scandals in the Roman Catholic church.
i am Grateful... Kerry i am. said...
The loving "inspiration" of your responses to the commenters is as good as the "information" in the post, maybe better. Many have forgotten that speaking the truth in Love is what makes Truth believable. God bless you brother.
Martin LaBar said...
Thanks, Kerry i am. I hope I've had the right attitude.
vanessa said...
Hello, I was looking up more info on Athaliah and found this blog along side :) would you Please clarify #5'sanswer: 5)Can homosexuals become happy heterosexuals? At least some of the time. (See 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.)Probably not all of the time.
Do you mean with our without receiving the redemptive work of the cross in their lives.For I have heard testamony of men who are now happily married and living lives sold out for Christ. could you please clarify your answer?
Martin LaBar said...
Thank you, Vanessa.

As you have indicated, there have been cases of practicing homosexuals who have become apparently happy practicing heterosexuals. I'm sure that the redemptive power of God was involved, as well as their own choice.

However, I doubt if that would be possible for all individuals. At least some people seem to be homosexual because their hormones make them so. You have probably had the same experience that I have, while watching TV. I have heard some men speak, and said to myself, something like "That sounds like a homosexual," and, it turned out that the person was, indeed, a homosexual. There seems to be a strong biological tendency, in some people, to be homosexual. God could overcome that, but, just as He doesn't choose to make all believers with Down syndrome into college professors, or all blind believers sighted, He doesn't seem to choose to change everyone's sexual orientation.

I believe that a Christian can be a fulfilled, happy, celibate. There are seem to be many examples of such, such as, for example, many protestant female missionaries, and Catholic nuns (most of whom would not have chosen to be homosexual, if such a choice were somehow allowable under God). This can be true whether the person's biological inclination is to be homosexual or heterosexual. I am thankful that, for most of my life, I have not been so called -- I have been happily married to a good woman -- and I hope I have some appreciation for those who have been called to celibacy for a significant portion of their lives, or all of them.

As I say, I'm not convinced that all practicing homosexuals can become satisfied practicing heterosexuals. I have no statistics on this, and no Biblical proof, but I still believe it, based on what I know of biology, and of how God deals with various other types of infirmity. I am convinced that, with the help of God, both heterosexuals and homosexuals can become, or remain, celibate.